topic Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event in Access Points - Indoor and Outdoor

ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

mihail_tudoran — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 18:07:05 GMT

I am planning to supply WiFi for a large public event, about 10000 people present. I estimate that at least half will connect and use the WiFi service, this event will be hosted in a remote area and I only expect small amounts of interference, also the traffic levels will be small ( facebook, simple browsing )

I do have one ZD3000 with 25 Ap license and ten R700 access points, I am not sure about the client limit on the ZD3000 because I noticed that there is a 5000 clients limit but didn't understand where this limit applies. This limitation applies only to authenticated clients or the total number of clients regardless if they are connected to a open network ( no security or captive portal at all ) or using some kind of encryption or authentication ?

At this event I will host two WLAN's: one encrypted with WPA2 ( no user database, only a simple password ) that will host about 100 clients and one open network that will host the public with no encryption or password ( planning to use Vlan pooling in order to break the broadcast domains into smaller chunks ).

Because at this moment I only have 10 x R700 I am planning to get ten more in order to support the clients. I never tested one R700 at full capacity, is this AP capable of the 500 clients stated in the data sheet ? Will the performance degrade very much ?

Thanks !

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

primoz_marinsek — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 18:58:04 GMT

I don't know your exact area you need to cover but I would suggest you don't use the R700. For HD you need to use directional antennas or APs that have directional antennas integrated like 7782-n, t301n or use the 7372-e with an external antenna.
The only time I'd use apps with omni antennas if you mean to place them under the seats but from what you wrote I'd say there won't be seats there.

And the 500 users per AP is a dream. Shoot for something up to 130 per AP spread through both bands.

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

mihail_tudoran — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 19:37:07 GMT

We install WiFi systems on demand for a limited number of hours or days, that's why we preferred the R700 and it's omni antenna, we never know the venue we are going to install so we need to adapt on the spot, using omni antennas do the job.

Maybe we need to buy ten more directional antenna units, combining both based on the venue and possible installation space, this should be a good idea.

Also really curious about the ZD3000 user limitation, I didn't find something clear enough about the 5000 clients limit.

How did Ruckus measure the 500 supported clients for the R700 ? Under what circumstances in order to make this statement ?

Thanks !

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

john_d — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 20:06:57 GMT

I recall the 500 client number was with open authentication (256 clients per radio), and WPA2 takes it down to something more around 128 simultaneous clients per radio.

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

mihail_tudoran — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 21:53:17 GMT

Thanks ! I mostly use open authentication networks.

Will the ZD3000 with 25 AP license supported more than 5000 clients ?

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

primoz_marinsek — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 08:45:56 GMT

One thing is how many stations can associate, and another how many can you have on an AP actually tranmitting data before either you run out of air-time or the AP says enough. With Ruckus APs you usually you run out of AT first. That's one of the reasons you need directional antennas, so that you don't create a cell where 1000 users will like to associate with it and demand their AT.

Maybe check out these antennas. http://www.wireless-instruments.com/en/produkty/21/dual-band-antennas.html

This conversation actually reminds me that I need to start a new one my self.

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

primoz_marinsek — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 08:51:16 GMT

Don't plan on having 500 users per AP if you want your network to work.

I keep forgetting about the user limit on ZDs, but I think it's any type of authentication that consumes one unit of that limit.

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

mihail_tudoran — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 08:57:11 GMT

The ZD3000 state that it can balance clients across APs to spread the load, using this should avoid creating a large cell only on one AP ? I mean having multiple R700 placed relatively close and connected to the director to balance the clients.

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

mihail_tudoran — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 08:59:12 GMT

So if using no authentication at all, only open networks this limit should not apply ?

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

primoz_marinsek — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 09:52:46 GMT

Well I guess if a marketing data-sheet say it than it must work 🙂

But seriously, paper will take anything you write on it, reality will give you a check at the end. Personally I would never use omni APs for HD, unless I'd put them under the seats. For overhead or side placement I'd always use directional antennas.

I'm not saying it won't work either as it depends on some factors and the standard is built in a way that it really takes a geniuos to screw it up so much that nothing will work, but in my experience it's unlikely that users will be satisfied with the network although I've seen that Ruckus performs much better even with a bad design compared to the competition that has problems with great designs too.

Or, let me restate, there is surely a much better way of doing this, but even if it's not that great design Ruckus' APs will help you hide some of that.

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

primoz_marinsek — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 09:54:00 GMT

As I said, I keep forgetting 🙂 and I don't know what happens if you enable AP survivability.

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

nuno_pimentel — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:14:24 GMT

I totally agree with Primoz, i had similar events and the first time i used only omni and was a disaster, then i started to use 7782-n and 7782-s and it's perfect. About the number of users.. yes i agree about that numbers for stable use.

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

michael_brado — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 20:51:13 GMT

A fully licensed ZD3000 can support up to 10,000 users.

As Primoz has stated, you cannot realistically expect to service traffic for 500 users per AP.

200-300 maximum would be a better number for planning purposes, assuming all Open Auth, as WPA limits to 128.

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

mihail_tudoran — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 21:22:03 GMT

Hi Michael,

I really didn't understand where this 5000 client limit ( for 25 AP license ) apply, it is for authenticated clients ( using WPA2 or any other type ) or for all users.

I only want to provide open SSID, no authentication, will this limit apply in this case ?

Thanks !

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

michael_brado — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 22:23:14 GMT

AP licenses determine how many APs your ZD can manage. (Up to 250 APs on ZD3K)

Number of total clients depends on how many APs are employed, and what type of authentication.

Mixing some WPA2-PSK with Open Auth might allow ~ 150-200 users per AP?

That would equate to support roughly 5000 users on 25 APs.

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

mihail_tudoran — Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:25:12 GMT

Hi Michael,

Let's say I upgrade to 100 APs version, this means the ZD3000 will still be limited to 5000 clients ?

As I said I do not plan to use authentication.

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

michael_brado — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 23:45:28 GMT

The ZD3000 supports up to 10,000 client connections (if you have enough APs).

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

norcaledu — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 04:09:41 GMT

Not to be a pain or restart this topic, but a ZD3000 will support 500 managed AP's. I'm just making sure it's clear in case someone comes along and reads this and gets confused.

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

monnat_systems — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 13:57:01 GMT

Yes, ZD3k is Capable of managing up to 500 ZoneFlex Smart Wi-Fi access points

Re: ZD3000 and R700 limits at a large public event

mihail_tudoran — Fri, 27 Mar 2015 13:10:15 GMT

The number of AP is very clear in the specs, as for the number of supported clients this is specified very ambiguous. On the main page of the product it is stated "Concurrent Station Up to 10,000" this is not always true, it depends on the license you have, Ruckus should clearly state those limitations ( is this a marketing glitch ? ). Also should clearly explain when this limitation apply, for authenticated clients, for open clients, for what ?

Consider the following, I have the ZD3025 that have 25 licenses and another 25 R700 access points, let's assume one R700 can support 300 clients, this means a possibility of 7500 clients. In this case the ZD3025 will limit my capacity to 5000 clients and in order to exceed this limit I should pay a useless license of AP's that I will never use ? See document here: https://support.ruckuswireless.com/answers/000001444

I think this limitation should be clarified and clearly stated on the product specs.